Variance of College Applicants

Keep discussion unrelated to the Cougars here.
Post Reply
matrojan
Posts: 2894
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:56 pm

Variance of College Applicants

Post by matrojan »

Wasn't the initial move to the CAA coupled with a move to being private again. Then we had to back out when the infrastructure costs were too high?
charlestondxman
Posts: 2383
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:03 pm
Location: James Island and Downtown
Contact:

Re: CAA additions

Post by charlestondxman »

I listened to a Monmouth podcast yesterday talking about the CAA move and it is a home run for them. They are with all of their peer institutions. They are excited to play Delaware and Towson.
User avatar
swampcougar1
Posts: 8109
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:19 am
Location: James Island

Re: CAA additions

Post by swampcougar1 »

Applying yes. Over 11800 applications to CofC we're accepted by CofC in fall of 2020. Only 22% are about 3000 actually enrolled. So yes a lot of in state students are choosing not to come to CofC. We are not turning them away as implied by sweetpea
You are who you are because you are who you want to be
sweetpea
Posts: 1165
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:03 pm

Re: CAA additions

Post by sweetpea »

swampcougar1 wrote:Applying yes. Over 11800 applications to CofC we're accepted by CofC in fall of 2020. Only 22% are about 3000 actually enrolled. So yes a lot of in state students are choosing not to come to CofC. We are not turning them away as implied by sweetpea
Huh?
User avatar
Comp Time
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:37 pm
Location: Mount Pleasant, SC

Re: CAA additions

Post by Comp Time »

sweetpea wrote:NC, GA, CA, FL, VA, TN ---insert any state-- pays out of state tuition.
And. We are a state school.
By no means should in state kids take a back seat to out of state. We pay taxes for a reason. Chasing out of state kids at the expense of in state is problematic.
Also, average SAT scores by state is skewed. Many states allow kids to not take.
How about we manage in state education and bot some magazine's ratings?
CofC is a state supported school, but state funding pays for about 8% of the budget for CofC. South Carolina hasn't properly funded higher education for 20 years. However, we are required to take a certain percentage of in-state kids.

When I quoted SAT scores, I wasn't quoting state averages. I'm quoting the scores of kids applying to CofC from the Northeast and mid-Atlantic. We actually turn away more qualified out-of-state kids so that we can admit in-state kids. If CofC was based solely on merit and no preference was given to in-state kids, less than 10% of the students would be from SC. That's the reality of SC public education. I wish it were different, but it's not.

US News ratings are the #1 things kids look at when applying to schools. I hate these rating, and they are easily manipulated, but the reality is that if you want to attract top kids, you have to have good rankings.

Moving from the SoCon to the CAA has resulted in a significant increase in the quality of students choosing CofC. This should not be the main factor for deciding which conference to belong to, but it has been a nice benefit. This is what the AD was referring to in his interview.
sweetpea
Posts: 1165
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:03 pm

Re: CAA additions

Post by sweetpea »

Comp Time wrote:
sweetpea wrote:NC, GA, CA, FL, VA, TN ---insert any state-- pays out of state tuition.
And. We are a state school.
By no means should in state kids take a back seat to out of state. We pay taxes for a reason. Chasing out of state kids at the expense of in state is problematic.
Also, average SAT scores by state is skewed. Many states allow kids to not take.
How about we manage in state education and bot some magazine's ratings?
CofC is a state supported school, but state funding pays for about 8% of the budget for CofC. South Carolina hasn't properly funded higher education for 20 years. However, we are required to take a certain percentage of in-state kids.

When I quoted SAT scores, I wasn't quoting state averages. I'm quoting the scores of kids applying to CofC from the Northeast and mid-Atlantic. We actually turn away more qualified out-of-state kids so that we can admit in-state kids. If CofC was based solely on merit and no preference was given to in-state kids, less than 10% of the students would be from SC. That's the reality of SC public education. I wish it were different, but it's not.

US News ratings are the #1 things kids look at when applying to schools. I hate these rating, and they are easily manipulated, but the reality is that if you want to attract top kids, you have to have good rankings.

Moving from the SoCon to the CAA has resulted in a significant increase in the quality of students choosing CofC. This should not be the main factor for deciding which conference to belong to, but it has been a nice benefit. This is what the AD was referring to in his interview.

Operational budget, maybe. But, capital expenditures and the infrastructure is state owned.
We SHOULD be required to take a certain percentage of i-state kids.....since we are an in-state school.
We should accept in-state kids when we reach limits. I don't know what those limits are.
Not debating SC education levels, except to say some is just a numbers game. For example, there is more people in the greater ATL area than all of SC. IE sheer volume of applications from out of state could overwhelm in-state.

Magazine ratings (US News or otherwise) is not the #1 thing looked at when going through college application process. Local HS in CHS with the entire Senior class applying for college. Magazine rankings is not used/not referenced/not considered. Sites like Niche are as well as internal guidance counselor resources....NOT US News World Report.
My belief is that the US News ranking is an ego boost for CofC admin more than anything else.

Kids from NY, DE, MD, MA, are better "quality" than ones from GA, NC, VA, FL, TN, MI, CA, NM, etc. etc? Nonsense. Kids from NY, DE, MD, MA have one thing different and one thing only.---Geography.

I was for the move to CAA, but it looks to be a mistake. The alignment to NE states for students is a rationalization for that move imo.
matrojan
Posts: 2894
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: CAA additions

Post by matrojan »

As someone who went through the public school system in SC and now live in the suburbs of Boston.

Massachusetts creates far more prepared students than from South Carolina. Competition for UMASS -Amherst is fierce and many of the outlying states like Maine and New Hampshire try to entice Massachusetts high schoolers by offering them in state tuition rates. What
Comp time said isn't wrong.

Though many states in the South and Midwest game the SATs, they don't in NEw England. Most of those states have higher test taking rates than SC.
sweetpea
Posts: 1165
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:03 pm

Re: CAA additions

Post by sweetpea »

SAT Participation rate:
MA = 34%
SC = 64%
--Looks to me that MA is doing the "gaming"

As an outlier--MN participation rate = 2% with the highest average score at 1263.

You will see scores reduce as participation rate increases as a normal trend.

So again, state SAT averages are highly skewed and difficult, at best, to compare.

Again, what defines "quality" of a student from MA, NY, DE, MD vs. ones from GA, NC, TN, MI, CA, NM, FL, TX, etc? --Geographic bias does not equate to quality.
sweetpea
Posts: 1165
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:03 pm

Re: CAA additions

Post by sweetpea »

https://reports.collegeboard.org/sat-su ... am-results

https://reports.collegeboard.org/pdf/20 ... report.pdf

2021 SAT Suite Annual Report
Massachusetts

Class of 2021
SAT Takers¹ -- 27,255
High School Graduates² -- 79,210
SAT Participation Rate -- 34%

---------------------------------

2021 SAT Suite Annual Report
South Carolina

Class of 2021
SAT Takers¹ -- 25,595
High School Graduates² --53,090
SAT Participation Rate -- 48%

-------------------------------
I'll ask again. What "quality" does a student from NY, MA, DE, MD have that one from NC, GA, FL, TN, CA, NM, AK, HI doesn't have?
matrojan
Posts: 2894
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: CAA additions

Post by matrojan »

You think those stats may have been skewed because of COVID? It least make an honest argument.
Massachusetts.
2017 -76%
2018 - 80%
2019 - 81%

Ok you recent 2021 stats are lower, but you have to assume there is a pretty huge asterix to that statistic. You really trying to pass those 2021 as anything other than a massive outlier?
sweetpea
Posts: 1165
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:03 pm

Re: CAA additions

Post by sweetpea »

matrojan wrote:You think those stats may have been skewed because of COVID? It least make an honest argument.
Massachusetts.
2017 -76%
2018 - 80%
2019 - 81%

Ok you recent 2021 stats are lower, but you have to assume there is a pretty huge asterix to that statistic. You really trying to pass those 2021 as anything other than a massive outlier?
I am not "passing" anything. I am showing you 2021 SAT participation rate. Straight from the source that assesses and disseminates SAT data.
Not sure what you men by "it least make an honest argument"--as in I am not making an honest argument or the Stats are making an honest argument?

Also,
Take a look at the caveats given to those making admissions decisions.
"Relationships between test scores and other background or
contextual factors are complex and interdependent. Caution is
warranted when using scores to compare or evaluate
teachers, schools, districts, or states, because of differences
in participation and test taker populations"


I didn't write those words. The college board that assesses SAT data wrote those words.

Want to see some more interesting data? For MA check the schools applied to by SAT takers. The top 45 schools are listed from UMAss Amherst representing 33+% of applications to Penn at 3%. Guess who is NOT listed?

Simple question that seems to be ignored:
What IS the "quality" that potential CofC students from NY, MA, MD, DE possess that students from NC, GA, FL, TN, KY, MI, CA, HI, AK, NM don't possess?



PS. If you want to chat about Covid and short term and long term trends, I'll be glad to do that in a different thread.
hungry
Posts: 6058
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:16 pm
Location: Mt. Pleasant

Re: Variance of College Applicants

Post by hungry »

"MN participation rate = 2% with the highest average score at 1263"
From sweetpea, a post of interest, in that 2 members of my family each had 1265. Of note, both had been bassoonists. Coincidence?
I recall a letter to the editor several years ago where a family had moved to Sullivan's Island from up north (Massachusetts, New Jersey?) and their child had to be moved down a grade at S.I. Elementary. Conincidence?
There are broad statistics and there are individuals.
sweetpea
Posts: 1165
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:03 pm

Re: Variance of College Applicants

Post by sweetpea »

Yes.
And individuals from NY or MA should not be treated differently than individuals from NM or TN. But, some believe that where one is born means they have more "quality".
It's like some contrived caste system.
hungry
Posts: 6058
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:16 pm
Location: Mt. Pleasant

Re: Variance of College Applicants

Post by hungry »

I may be too proud to be nobody from nowhere
User avatar
Comp Time
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:37 pm
Location: Mount Pleasant, SC

Re: Variance of College Applicants

Post by Comp Time »

sweetpea wrote:Yes.
And individuals from NY or MA should not be treated differently than individuals from NM or TN. But, some believe that where one is born means they have more "quality".
It's like some contrived caste system.

Kids from NY, DE, MD, MA, are better "quality" than ones from GA, NC, VA, FL, TN, MI, CA, NM, etc. etc? Nonsense. Kids from NY, DE, MD, MA have one thing different and one thing only.---Geography.


I think you may have misinterpreted a word I used based upon your 2 quotes above. I'm using the word "quality" from an admissions standpoint. I mean that most (not all) kids applying to CofC from those states have more AP classes, higher GPAs, and higher standardized test scores. This isn't my opinion; it is factual. There are exceptions to these generalizations, but there are a lot of academically gifted kids from the northeast and mid-Atlantic. They are not necessarily better kids, but they are higher "quality" from an admissions standpoint. It has nothing to do with where they are born, but has everything to do with the quality of public education in those areas.

With that being said, we have some spectacular students in SC. About 1/3 of the kids in the Honors College are from SC and they are very high quality students who could get into any school. Unfortunately, SC has far more failing schools that high-achieveing ones. I wish this were different. Frankly, I miss the days when I was at CofC where almost everyone was from SC, NC or Georgia.
sweetpea
Posts: 1165
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:03 pm

Re: Variance of College Applicants

Post by sweetpea »

Comp Time wrote:
sweetpea wrote:Yes.
And individuals from NY or MA should not be treated differently than individuals from NM or TN. But, some believe that where one is born means they have more "quality".
It's like some contrived caste system.

Kids from NY, DE, MD, MA, are better "quality" than ones from GA, NC, VA, FL, TN, MI, CA, NM, etc. etc? Nonsense. Kids from NY, DE, MD, MA have one thing different and one thing only.---Geography.


I think you may have misinterpreted a word I used based upon your 2 quotes above. I'm using the word "quality" from an admissions standpoint. I mean that most (not all) kids applying to CofC from those states have more AP classes, higher GPAs, and higher standardized test scores. This isn't my opinion; it is factual. There are exceptions to these generalizations, but there are a lot of academically gifted kids from the northeast and mid-Atlantic. They are not necessarily better kids, but they are higher "quality" from an admissions standpoint. It has nothing to do with where they are born, but has everything to do with the quality of public education in those areas.

With that being said, we have some spectacular students in SC. About 1/3 of the kids in the Honors College are from SC and they are very high quality students who could get into any school. Unfortunately, SC has far more failing schools that high-achieveing ones. I wish this were different. Frankly, I miss the days when I was at CofC where almost everyone was from SC, NC or Georgia.
I am not misinterpreting anything.
NE and Mid Atlantic do not necessarily equate to quality from any standpoint.

Same as SE, MW or west coast does not mean less quality from any standpoint.
Agree on SC students. Students should be judged individually....not based on some contrived geographic caste system.
Post Reply