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 Post subject: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:45 am 
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ATLCoug wrote:
Grant’s style of hard nosed defense and trying to out athlete the other team on offense is great for CAA where we have arguably the most athletic/talented team, but has shown not successful against power 5 teams who are bigger/quicker than we are. The mid-majors that are able to play with the big boys usually do it on three point shooting and ball movement. As long we play this style we will never be more than what we accomplished last year. Which is fine with me for now since it took us close to 20 years to break the NCAA drought.


I copied ATL's question there since it would be unfortunate to have it buried.
Its a valid point, and an observation that I noticed as well.
Its kind of moot in regards to Earl since he will be here until someone snatches him.
But moving forward after Earl gets plucked(max three seasons, quite possibly this offseason) do we stay with the system or migrate to a more offensive minded approach?
I strongly believe that sticking with a particular identity is the most important. Especially if it works. It helps the brand. There is less of a drop-off.

Look at UNCW you think they are having buyers remorse on moving away from the Keatts system. It could be that CB is just a marginal coach.


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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:21 am 
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Obviously, what our team is made up of is players Earl recruited- sought out, found, convinced them they would fit into his system, signed them. Now he's coaching them even further in his system. Hopefully it will be successful, which it has been so far, to a certain extent. I think we all agree Earl is a great recruiter. And I like the focus on defense & rebounding. Appears it needs to be taken up a notch & shots need to fall. It would take several years of recruiting to "migrate" to a different system. So, we want to have he identity of being a good defense/rebounding team that makes shots. Simple.

UNCW can only do what the players they have are capable of, with the staff they have. They didn't plan to lose Keatts. Our AD's job includes being ready to manage this type of thing, hopefully better than the C- Hawks. Is NC State gonna run away with the ACC?


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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:31 pm 
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UNCW is just going into their second year with new coach. Way too early to judge that. How did Grant do his first year. As for Grants system I have no problem with it. No one could predict the miserable shooting this team has shown the first 4 games this year. That will get better. As for EG leaving there is a good chance he may not want to. This is his roots and as he has said his dream job..

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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:05 pm 
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Give me a damn break. The grass is always greener, golden state warrior morons have spoken, more 3s, more high flying offense. :lol: Defense is what got us to the ncaa last year and is not a style that you can turn on/off. It has to always be in their back pocket to quote our hall of fame coach. Hey I hear a certain dumbaz redface fatfuk midget coach with a new exciting run/move offense is available. :lol: We will never out offense anyone on a consistent basis to get to the ncaa. This goes for every sport, Tom Brady & patriots comes to mind as of late. This topic is embarrassing & beneath us.


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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:19 pm 
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Lighten up Francis.... we are all on the same page here.

I certainly believe that we should maintain the Kresse system if/when Earl departs. Seems like most of us do.

As for UNCW. CB McGrath is trending towards danger territory, and without a track record he could be in trouble. Recall that in year 2 Earl was already making significant progress despite losing Joe and Grant preseason. Season didn't unravel until we lost Canyon in Conference play.


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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:50 pm 
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matrojan wrote:
Lighten up Francis.... we are all on the same page here.

I certainly believe that we should maintain the Kresse system if/when Earl departs. Seems like most of us do.

As for UNCW. CB McGrath is trending towards danger territory, and without a track record he could be in trouble. Recall that in year 2 Earl was already making significant progress despite losing Joe and Grant preseason. Season didn't unravel until we lost Canyon in Conference play.

I call out stupid when I see it and the morons jumping ship and wanting to go back to shooting gods in our back pocket have a very short memory as to how fickle that will always be. Anyone can play D as long as they are sold on it and coached up as evidenced by our success under the current staff. We lose by 12 on the road to ok state playing a few of our rookies 4games in and we get dumbaz threads like this. Act like you've been there before morons. Uh, ya, why don't we just out recruit p5 schools for big tall athletic shooters..just stfu retards. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:01 pm 
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Bojack, you must not have read my post very closely. Nowhere did I say we need to go away from playing strong defense. It is possible to play hard nosed defense AND have a fluid offense that emphasizes ball movement that makes the defense work and allows us more open/high percentage shots. Our offense with Earl lacks the ball movement and motion needed to beat P5 teams, and his record against P5 teams shows that fact.

Look at the Cremins wins over the P5 teams, they were based off a lot of ball movement and open threes. It is possible to play Earl Grant style defense and Bobby Cremins style offense at the same time. You don't have to pick one or the other.

I'm not saying we have to run a Cremins style offense. If the Kresee style offense fits our personnel better, then run that. It was effective as well, because it emphasized crisp cuts, screens, and finely tuned half court sets. Our current offense is nowhere near on the level of either Kresse or Cremins. Earl's offense a lot of the time is just 4 guys around the perimeter trying to break their guy down one on one.


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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:27 pm 
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EG,s offense worked fine last year. No style of offense would work when you are not a threat from outside like this season so far

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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:37 am 
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We scored 58 against Auburn, 63 against Wichita State, and 62 against Rhode Island last year. Those were by far the best teams we played, and we averaged a total of 61 points against them. You aren't going to beat many teams of those caliber by scoring an average of 61 points.

Go back one more year to the Charleston Classic in 2016:
Boise State game-60 points
UCF-40 points
Wake Forest-61 points
Villanova-47 points

That's an average of 52 points. Out of the seven total games mentioned, we only won one of them, and that was to Boise State.

Earl is a good coach, and got us over the hump. My only point is that I think last year is about as good as it is going to get. His ability to coach offense is not at the level needed to take the next step.


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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:59 am 
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Brantley did not play against RI and do not think he played against Wichita St. Chealey was hobbled and could barely move against Auburn. We ave 74.6 points a game last season. Cremins last full season we ave 76.2 points a game. I have no problem with EG,s offense.

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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:55 pm 
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I don't believe the original post was couched that way, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and rescind my criticism. I agree that the team settles on the lazy 3 and its frustrating to watch. I don't believe its by design however. Presenting our point totals of the games you cited is unfairly one sided. Scores and who played as swamp pointed out would round out that argument. Some days its just missed open shots and the defense keeps us in. I remain all in on Coach, his staff, recruiting, his ongoing systematic process, team rapport, and continuity, and I don't suggest that your observations say otherwise either.


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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:40 pm 
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Like it, Bojack
2 points-
1- UCF had a player approaching 8'. We never found an answer to his D.
2- I forgot it.
Hope to see some of y'all in Florida.


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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:03 pm 
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Yea I'm not going to overreact just yet. The shooting against OK State was atrocious, even by our standards, but we had an extremely uncharacteristic shooting night from Riller, three freshmen playing significant minutes, two veterans who are decent shooters out (Pointer, Miller) and basically play 4 on 5 when one of our true centers is in.

Of course I'd like to see Grant level defense and rebounding with Cremins era offense. That team sounds like a juggernaut and would likely result in Grant being snagged by a bigger program already. IMO, building around defense, rebounding, and ball security is a sustainable foundation to build on. Yes you will struggle against bigger teams who can take you out of those facets, but you should have a chance in the other 85% of the schedule.

Coach Grant isn't anti-offense, I just think he feels that if you had to mold mid major recruits into one system or another, it'd be defense first. And hopefully he keeps evolving too. The level of talent keeps getting better (looks like we have an actual bench this year) so I give him the benefit of the doubt.


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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:57 pm 
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In Earl's defense, it's hard when the benchmark is John Kresse. I agree that our talent level is rising, and that Earl himself still is a young coach when it comes to being a head coach. However, I still remain skeptical that our offensive philosophy/system/coaching will change and improve, but I hope I am proven wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:41 pm 
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I think some memories over time have inflated the scoring of Cremins teams at CofC
Year 1 ave 69.4
Year 2 ave 72.5
Year 3 ave 77.3
Year 4 ave 75
Year 5 ave 76.2
Year 6 ave 70.77

Half those years less that our ave last year. The other 3 not enough above to be concerned about the difference. Grants offense as.good as Cremins and a better defense

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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:46 pm 
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I coached yth hoops, baseball, soccer & some vball for 10+yrs so I'm on par with Coach Grant :lol: :roll: but seriously on every level, win the games you are supposed to and maybe sneak up on a few you're not, for the bonus. Kresse was steady eddie as that was concerned. Bobby had way too many head scratching losses with his style. Recruit the best athletes, protect the ball, tough defense, emphasize the free throw, rebound, etc has put us where we are. The Marshall Plan has had alot of success on the national level at winthrop & now Wich. st. following the Kresse model. I would sign Grant to a lifetime contract today.


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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:12 pm 
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in the great words of Aaron Rogers we all need to relax... 3-1. Yea we havent shot it well, but getting Pointer back will help with a lot plus Losing Joe hurts the percentage. Everyone move away from the ledge and GO COUGS!


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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:30 pm 
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bojack wrote:
I coached yth hoops, baseball, soccer & some vball for 10+yrs so I'm on par with Coach Grant :lol: :roll: but seriously on every level, win the games you are supposed to and maybe sneak up on a few you're not, for the bonus. Kresse was steady eddie as that was concerned. Bobby had way too many head scratching losses with his style. Recruit the best athletes, protect the ball, tough defense, emphasize the free throw, rebound, etc has put us where we are. The Marshall Plan has had alot of success on the national level at winthrop & now Wich. st. following the Kresse model. I would sign Grant to a lifetime contract today.


I agree with following the Kresse and Marshall model. Grant's offense is neither, that is my point.

Kresse and Marshall's offenses are based off finely tuned half court sets, very similar to Mike Young's style. Grant's style is 4 around the perimeter with a decent amount of ball screens and a ton of one on ones. You have to get out and run, have good three point shooters, and be willing to take open shots, even if early in the shot clock, for this offense to be effective against Power 5 opponents.

The entire point of the original post was Grant's style is not effective against Power 5 opponents. I 100 percent agree it works in CAA play. If you look at the facts of how much we have scored against P5 opponents, the results speak for themselves. You can say Chealey was hurt, Brantley was out, but the games where they both played the results were the same as when they didn't play. I'm curious to hear MATrojan's thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:40 pm 
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Kresse teams had 2 seasons they ave more points than last years Cougars. He had 5 or 6 seasons they ave less than 70. Once again time has inflated scoring memories. Be very happy with what we have. Could have been another hamster or wojoke

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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:52 am 
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Grant's style is still R&D & free throws. That's him.
His offensive style has become what Chealey, Riller & Brantley were/are. What else could it be? We enjoy that, but we are caught up in the vagaries of college basketball- will the shots fall? Meanwhile, Coach Kresse always said no matter if it's a hot shooting night or not, you must always bring your defense.


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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:02 pm 
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Upon further review i am rescinding my earlier rescission and reinstituting my criticism of this dumb thread and doubling down on my insults for you pearl clutchers. :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Pearl clutcher or realist when it comes to Earl Grant coached teams' level of offense vs. P5 teams? The point of the entire thread was our lack of offense against P5 teams.

Somehow it has been turned into whether Earl Grant is a good coach for CofC. Of course he is. My only point is that if we want to take the next step beyond what we achieved last year, which would involve beating P5 teams, our offense has to become dramatically better against P5 teams. Our offense against CAA teams has zero relevance to what this thread is about.

Also, the stat that we averaged 74 points last year has ZERO relevance because over 90 percent of our games were against non-P5 teams. The only stat that has any relevance in this discussion is what our average point total is against POWER 5 TEAMS under the Earl Grant era.


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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:48 pm 
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You keep presenting our point totals against p5 opponents which is a dumb metric for your dumber argument. You do know that our game plan is to never trade baskets against bigger deeper more athletic p5 schools but to slow it down, burn the clock, limit opponent looks and possesions by turning up the defense, thus resulting in a lower scored match by both teams? hoops 101 buckwheat, sometimes it works. Without looking it up I bet said opponent scores were well under their average. jfc you are dumb. Don't let the facts get in the way of your bonehead thesis/agenda there, fake news guy.


Last edited by bojack on Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:50 pm 
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Kresse teams won about 25% of the time against power 5. Grants has won 20% against power 5 with a much smaller sample size. Bottom line is does not matter what offense have to shoot a decent % to win. I do not care what style Grant runs. The wins will come as the one he has against LSU already has

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 Post subject: Re: The Program, Earl and beyond...
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:05 pm 
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Agreed. You need to beat P5 teams to have much relevance for an at-large during the regular season. Other than the game against LSU when we shut down Ben Simmons, that really hasn’t happened much under Grant. We didn’t have many chances last season (only Rhode Island and Wichita, both without Jarrell).

The year before, the league was better, and we were actually on the fringes of an at-large. Flip the LSU game (when we were tied with 4 minutes left and lost by 10), one of the two Ls we had in the classic where we started off terribly, the NU game we lost at the buzzer, or the Towson road game we lost in OT, and you’re right in at-large territory. We would have had 27 or 28 wins that season.

The year before that, we lost Barry on the first game of conference play. Even then, we probably lost 5 games that year in the last possession or two (including Davidson at the end).

Amazingly, that 2014-2015 team which only won 9 games played UConn to an 8 point game in Puerto Rico, and led at the half against a Texas A&M team which won 20 games that season before losing by 9.

Defense does keep us in games. That is a trait all of Grant’s teams have had (even the 9 win team). That wasn’t present much under Wojcik. We made a philosophy change under a critical time in our program. Who knows where we would have gone if we had made the wrong hiring choice. We might have been at Citadel attendance levels. Thankfully, Glenn did.


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